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tv   [untitled]    April 4, 2012 11:30am-12:00pm EDT

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at seven thirty pm moscow time these are your headlines from our chief the first u.s. marines response as america's military moves in on the asia pacific region to trial and china's growing influence. russia warns against arming the syrian rebels with peace efforts underway saying they can't topple president and it will only lead to the carnage. and the haze rejection of palestinian requests to investigate a lesser israeli war crimes on their territory both out of the courts can see out
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of the. next crosstalk examines whether democracy and islam can co-exist stay with archie. can start. to. follow in welcome across dot com peter lavelle game changer in egypt the muslim brotherhood's decision to run a presidential candidate in the upcoming election has stunned many is a policy and strategy reversal that changes the political calculus in the country is the muslim brotherhood attempting to hijack the revolution or merely trying to preserve and. kick. start. to cross out the muslim brotherhood strategy i'm joined today by elisa lapin in new york she's
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a writer and us space investigative journalist and focusing on the middle east and islam in london we have an ability ramdani she is a journalist an academic who specializes in the middle east and north africa and in tel aviv we go to on kesler he is middle east affairs correspondent for the jerusalem post all right folks this is crossfire that means you can jump in anytime you want i very much encourage it and the bill in london if i go to you first here what do you make of the muslim brotherhood's decision to run a candidate only a week ago two weeks ago they in fact equally denied if they were going to do it now they are we see the movement slightly fractured it's a big gamble and if they win they have all power. well absolutely it certainly is a dramatic shift from the muslim brotherhood. probably policy not to field a candidate in the presidential race precisely because the accusations directed at the muslim brotherhood are already wielding too much power effectively are not
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clear on egyptian state affairs following their overwhelming victory in the parliament but also because they are also in charge overwhelmingly in drafting egypt's new constitution and i think their decision before not to send a candidate for the presidential race was to try and assuage the fears that they were seeking too much power but certainly this decision now to send candidate for the election is a dramatic a u. turn and it will have not only dramatic consequences for the internal politics of the party the muslim brotherhood but also for egypt as a country because of its it's the largest country in the middle east and also because of its. privileged geostrategic position and there i say will have also consequences on the direction that the arab spring is taking more generally in
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a very good nearly so what do you think about this is this a big gamble on the part of the brotherhood because and it was pointed out here i mean right now here because a lot of people say it's a gamble and it really strikes. i don't think it's a gamble i don't think it's a surprise at all actually i think if this is in a revolution in the planning stage for the last eighty three years and in fact you know they've never made they've never made a secret about the fact that they wanted complete control and they wanted shari'a law and they wanted islamic law and that's been in their foundational precepts since nine. twenty eight it's not really a surprise to me at all so yes i don't find so you think that this is talking you think this thing else you think you've been waiting for this for all this time particularly since the fall of the. regime sadly i will go back to that ornon in tel aviv what do you think about the political calculus of the muslim brotherhood
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you know political actors anywhere in the world that want to increase and maintain and retain their power whether it's the egyptian army or the muslim brotherhood or you name it i don't know of any party in the world. that doesn't want to hold power . in the case of the army you would rather sort of reap the benefits and second of having its fingers and almost every economic thought in egypt without you know having to take responsibility for the economy but surely that both the army and the brotherhood want to maintain their interest maintain maintain power through the bill what do you think about that because that means the it's quite obvious the army doesn't the military doesn't want to give up power because the controls mostly of the economy and their privileges and their you know they have a very nice lifestyle they've had it for a long time and they have a very good friend in washington as well i mean the status quo was always suited the military in egypt since the fall of mubarak. very much so i would so i think disagree with the assessment that the muslim brotherhood's decision to send
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a candidate in in the end is true i would actually call it pragmatic i think there's a simple reason behind the muslim brotherhood's decision and that is to you know take advantage of what is effectively a historical chance for them to actually wilt power for the first time in the country's history there have been all sorts of theories behind the reasons why they are sending good candidates including first cynics i would say. that there is some secret pact between the muslim brotherhood and the military in an attempt to amend taint the status quo and indeed to engage in a power sharing deal i think you know that if a muslim brotherhood candidate is elected he will have he will have huge responsibilities to a source how the economy of the country let's not lose sight that it's the major problem that the country's facing and because the muslim brotherhood will then be
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the only challenger for the military the only party that will have to hold the military accountable and in the put it in its place there will be a crucial test for the party in all sorts of fields including politics but also the economy and indeed the social problems of the country and if i go back to new york i mean the model of the brother goes on brotherhood claims that they're actually a barrier to the satellites to be the more radical group to come to power they're going to be running also a candidate i mean so they're playing the middle ground and he won the beaded parliamentary election i mean they are genuinely popular among the electorate ahead well that's true they are very popular i mean is predominantly muslim. there are about ten or twelve million cops so you know that's about ten percent give or take of the copulation and the rest of the people by and large are muslim and.
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islam has been the predominant. faith since the conquest of the area in the eighth century. so it's really not a surprise at all that they're very popular and. the area has been problematic for centuries i mean the economy has been poor i mean in fact in the eighteenth century you know you small invited napoleon to to help out with the economy so you know the way this is like history repeating itself . ok ok boring if i can go here again i mean i mean the thing is is that you know this is a democratic process and plain i mean no and i'll agree with you on the mean if you couldn't win then why don't you go out in when it looks like the brotherhood has a very good chance of doing then i agree with the below mean then you could have an enormous amount of responsibility on your hands ok if you fix the economy to create
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jobs i mean in that way it is a gamble. it's true it's true that it is a gamble on the core of the brotherhood i mean egypt's egypt's economy is in dire straits there are. forty percent of egyptians live almost into dollars a day and a million and a half babies are born in egypt every year. there's a brotherhood have answers to these problems and i think it does on the other hand if if if you or i or the brotherhood and we waited eight decades to seize power i don't think we would like the chance of a way ok on i mean is it ok and it will achieve our i think is going a bit strong here we are talking about an election our way absolutely and one which should never lose sight of the fact that the muslim brotherhood has been fairly elected by the people in parliamentary elections to run the affairs of the state and i think the reason why the muslim brotherhood candidate or shot that seems to have good chances to win the election is that because he is
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a multimillionaire he's a fine and serious who's got extremely good grasp on the economy and traditionally islamic parties tend to could be emphasis on charitable work on philanthropy and you know social justice is no substitute for. sorry charity is no substitute for social justice and this this is precisely what charter is offer and he's offering a real economic and social program as an alternative and since his party role in the parliamentary elections he hasn't been able to meet with all sorts of influential people including for foreign officials in brussels is diplomats and more crucially representatives of international organizations including the international monetary fund and has been able to negotiate a generous learn for egypt and he also is very much seen in egypt as the savior of the economy as the engineer behind the run a source project involving
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a thousand scientists and people from the business industry in general and that's why and i can't stress that in a graph that the muslim brotherhood major test will be to sort out the extreme economic situation in the country we've seen one in new york you think they're after the cask. well you know it's a it's a bit of a i disagree completely with that they're up to the task and i don't think that the primary goal is even economic i mean it's basically they want islamics or promises and then this is been the goal right from the get go i mean if and i mean i have known you have a problem with some that you have a problem with them doing that democratically through an election i mean if this is what the people vote. tell you why am i i think the problem really will be in how we deal with the coptic minority and what you've
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already seen is that the economic straits the country is in there's no question about it i mean they're importing something like eighty percent of their week and you know as oren said the prices are ridiculous and they're living on three dollars a day and bread is they live on bread and they're pouring it all so just being here with me can i will continue our discussion of the gyptian politics after our short break we'll continue our discussion on egypt largest political party state. if you. want to. filmmaker. and. that's the. director's cut of real life made in prison on charges called.
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a fairly. good fit. for. her. wealthy british scientists. like free. markets. find out what's really happening to the global economy for a no holds barred look at the global financial headlines to cause
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a report. download the official policy of location the phone and called touch from the i.q. saps to. life on the go. video on demand policies mindful of costs and r.s.s. feeds now in the palm of your. question. can. you. please. welcome back to crossfire i'm carol about to mind you were talking about the muslim brotherhood's participation in the presidential election. look. if you. live. ok
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we ended the first part of the program talking about the dire straits of the egyptian economy i mean i think all of us would agree they need a big change there the military has had their hands in the till for so very long backed up by the americans for so long give somebody else a chance i mean that's what it looks like they're asking people to do and i think all of us if you like them or not would generally genuinely agree that they are popular in egypt so give them a shot. yes very much so and you know we shouldn't forget that we're talking about a muslim majority country so we shouldn't be too surprised to see that the islamic policy he's doing well in that context the muslim brotherhood has also been stigmatized let's not forget especially in the wake of america's so-called war on terror which effectively put the muslim brotherhood push the muslim brotherhood on the ground and it led to the party being banned accepted and officially in
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the political landscape but nonetheless bound and this is as a direct this was as a direct result between the corporation between the dictatorship of mubarak and the u.s. administration. i would certainly include my. own no no no no no no result first an irony in the you know the knowing first if he asked first go ahead oren well it's just simply untrue that it was that the brotherhood was pushed underground due to the u.s. war on terror the under the brotherhood has been underground for decades going back to the area over the last or so i mean i'm not quite sure where in the bill is getting is going the facts. little you want to respond to that especially so especially if yes absolutely i'm saying it is suppressed especially so in america's war on terror which largely contributed not just in egypt but across the muslim world to stigmatise islamic parties not just in egypt but in tunisia in morocco and
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indeed across the region and contributed to demonize this party and basically kind them as islamic extremists now we know that the muslim brotherhood is seen as a moderate party and contrary to what alisa was saying it is also seen in egypt as a glock in fact to the more radical party which is the salafist party of of noor which is supported by gulf countries especially saudi arabia ok if you want to jump in there you said you disagree go ahead. i don't i don't really see a big difference between the muslim brotherhood and the softest parties particular i think warren is absolutely right i mean the brotherhood was burned initially nine hundred forty eight after an assassination attempt. to know there were many brothers who fled egypt and went to saudi arabia and went to kuwait they went
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to carter and so on so this is not a new thing at all in. muslim brotherhood of forty fifty years ago it's the same as the muslim brotherhood today in egypt there's no change they haven't evolved and i think we have found a way to head the founding principles are exactly the same i mean you know we have charter is actually saying that he supports our laws are and he wants ours are to be involved in the islamization of the world and ours are has a role in gaining control of islamization in egypt. and of the world and he said this just very recently so if you know there. are certain 1940's we still beginning of the arab spring we've seen islamic parties wanting to democratic process to to work for their people ok to have the same kind
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of lifestyles and be more rich countries in the world and they want to do it through the ballot box why are they being so demonized and that's why i asked the question i mean the muslim brotherhood has been actually quite quiet since the fall of mubarak and only been getting involved in the political process like everybody else. well you know if the brotherhood is seen as a moderate i don't know who's the one doing the seeing here i don't i don't see them as a moderate you know they may be moderate relative to the seller fees but that's like it's a terrible comparison i mean it's like i wouldn't want either if i were an egyptian and so you've been harmed you have a cancer you have a problem with the brother is the only islamic party in egypt that recognizes and wants to preserve the peace treaty with israel that's pretty moderate isn't it well even that it spends what hour of the day you ask them it depends who you ask and it depends who is doing the asking. you know just in january i think it was
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a brotherhood spokesman told it was a shock allows up to london based arabic paper so there's no way we're going to recognize israel period and then the next week the brotherhood deputy leader told the western audience of well we'll respect older trains so really they've spoken to him to voices about this and and we'll have to just sort of wait and see what they do rather than rather than rely on what they came to belie so you're not shaking your head go right ahead. yes i agree we have to see what they do but in the meantime we can also take into account the party i mean for example they're very much inclusive of christian copts in egypt they're inclusive of women. like the salafist party a new for example and it has the backing of the u.s. administration hillary clinton has shown supported toward charkha shot her story because he thought the muslim brotherhood also has pledged not to put
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a referendum the peace treaty with israel it has also banned demonstrations in front of these radian the sea in because of people egyptians were protesting against israel's treatment of the palestinian people for example now of course america will have to convince the gulf countries like saudi arabia to accept a candidate who has already been accepted by all the gulf countries like qatar for example so of course let's wait and see what the muslim brotherhood will achieve when it comes to car but the positive news here is that if. doesn't deliver then i'm pretty confident that the egyptians will take to the streets again and will democrats likely oust him. new york what do you think about that that's an interesting scenario and quite reasonable would go ahead. well i mean i have to
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agree that i with or and i don't think there's any. comparison between north and brotherhood in. the more conservative softest really like or a piece of pie with one is the cross the nearly one is the middle and it's all of the piece the thing is that if the idea here is to make egypt's islamic and. in fact i mean there are people who think that the muslim brotherhood actually wants chaos and once a create chaos because that's what brings more of the faith which is why we're here with you the democratic process they want to discredit the democratic process as well this is part of those it's going to be one man one vote one time i don't think that this is going to be a democracy it's certainly not going to be a western democracy and why should it be it's going to be western democracy it
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should be islamic or democracy. it doesn't have to be it doesn't have to be a western democracy i'm just saying it won't be it's not going to be and i don't think it's going to be democratic at all in any sense of the word it's not going to be the man the regular man participating in as far as peace and justice for the knowing already is ridiculous i mean people are burning churches they're burning whole churches with people alive inside of them and in the muslim brotherhood is just there is doing that are they burning churches yes they are absolutely are they're absolutely are paying the bills as of right now we have bill. i think you know one should bear in mind that the military has been quite instrumental in. the korean divisions. precisely because it doesn't want to lead car and it's reluctant to transfer
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policy when government let alone to an elected president and we've seen throughout all of the revolution how the all the ways are using sectarian divisions to. pitch one community you can still other war and what do you think i'm not going to ask you to speak for the israeli government i'm asking you your opinion but it gives release of always prefer to deal with dictators like mubarak i mean a ready for a democratically elected president of egypt. before i answer that question i'd just like to address something to be listed earlier and i hate to pick on you here but i think you're being a bit too generous with with your description of the brotherhood as it relates to religious minorities it's true there are one or two cops on their on their party roster the egyptians because i talked to in egypt or all every one of them from a man into women are petrified of the brotherhood coming out party none of them are voting for the brotherhood so i think we should we should just be
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a little bit more wary of. the brotherhood and a bit less eager to sort of pounce on every issue except every every statement they make about religious tolerance it was like everybody wants to be in the brotherhood no matter what they say can you answer my question or and as far as israel is concerned in a democratically elected government of egypt. i'm sorry could you could you repeat you know actually what we are doing is really. more of it been very comfortable in dealing with arab dictators for decades now are they going to be able to deal with democratically lead elected leaders like we'll see in egypt. look i don't i don't think israelis have the most israelis anyway again i'm not a spokesperson but i don't think most israelis have any illusions that dealing with the brotherhood is going to be particularly pleasant or easy or effective. but i mean israel is in a bind if you know we israel doesn't particularly like you know having to deal with the theater as as it sees it but when there are popular elections we saw in the
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palestinian territories we saw it in egypt. islam is from the power now we've seen it in tunisia we've seen it in morocco. it's a real catch twenty two ok inability very strange that muslims vote for islamic parties i don't i can't get my head around why that's a problem go ahead uta last word. because i don't think it's a problem recall i think you know what i have a very long time western democracy. world that either they have relative stability. or they harm the bill i'm afraid i'm going to have to jump in here we've run out of time folks fascinating discussion many thanks to my guest today in new york london and in tel aviv and thanks to our viewers for watching us here to see you next time and remember.
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on. it.
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